[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":1907},["ShallowReactive",2],{"library-ba-fei-te-2008nian-21-shi-ji-jing-ji-ling-dao-zhe-cai-fang":3,"library-sidebar-buffett":371,"library-sidebar-dao":1373,"library-sidebar-models":1675},{"id":4,"title":5,"body":6,"category":357,"date":358,"description":359,"extension":360,"meta":361,"navigation":362,"order":363,"path":364,"seo":365,"seoDescription":359,"seoTitle":366,"slug":367,"stem":368,"__hash__":369,"_collection":370},"buffett\u002Fbuffett\u002Finterview\u002Fba-fei-te-2008nian-21-shi-ji-jing-ji-ling-dao-zhe-cai-fang.md","巴菲特：2008年21 世纪经济领导者采访",{"type":7,"value":8,"toc":352},"minimark",[9,13,18,22,25,33,36,39,42,45,48,51,58,61,64,67,70,73,76,79,82,85,88,91,94,97,100,103,106,109,112,115,118,121,124,127,130,133,136,139,142,145,148,151,154,157,160,163,166,169,172,175,178,181,184,187,190,193,196,199,202,205,208,211,214,217,220,223,226,229,232,235,238,241,244,247,250,253,256,259,262,265,268,271,274,277,280,283,286,289,292,295,298,301,304,307,310,313,316,319,322,325,328,331,334,337,340,343,346,349],[10,11,5],"h1",{"id":12},"巴菲特2008年21-世纪经济领导者采访",[14,15,17],"h2",{"id":16},"巴菲特21-世纪经济领导者采访2008","巴菲特：21 世纪经济领导者采访2008",[19,20,21],"p",{},"加州州长阿诺德-施瓦辛格与沃伦-巴菲特10 月22 日一起出席了2008 年妇女大会(2008 Women's Conference),他们参与了题为\"21 世纪经济领导者\"(Leadership in a 21st century Economy)的讨论,此次讨论由MS-NBC 电视台的克里斯-马修斯(Christopher John Matthews)主持.",[19,23,24],{},"马修斯：今早股市下跌了350 点。今天坐在这里的人们该怎么做，该做出怎样的投资决策，巴菲特先生？",[19,26,27,28,32],{},"巴菲特：噢，我不知道股市在明天、下周以及明年会如何表现。但毫无疑问，在我看来10 年之后的股票价格将会比现在高很多，而那些持有现金等价物的人们届时将会面临现金等价物贬值的危险。我不能给出你准确进场的时间，",[29,30,31],"strong",{},"但如果你持有那些注定要贬值的现金等价物的话，你面临一个将其置换成注定要升值的东西的机会，至于何时动手则取决于你自己","。我并不认为人们能够给出时间表，但我相信相机而动。正如我上周说过的那样，我个人的投资组合实际上正在从100%持有政府债券转到100%持有股票，因为股票正在下跌。",[19,34,35],{},"马修斯：那么还是那句我们从经理人那里听到的话——我们总是听到相同的话，我们要继续待在股市里？",[19,37,38],{},"巴菲特：是的。我们国家在20 世纪经历过一次大萧条、两次世界大战，其中一次我们一度面临失败的危险、数次流感爆发、一次总统辞职、差不多12 次的经济衰退和人心恐慌。在20 世纪道琼斯指数始于66 点，而结束于11497 点。我们国家运转良好。它会一次次把经济搞得一团糟，但这个国家运转良好。",[19,40,41],{},"马修斯：施瓦辛格州长，在我们讨论公共政策之前，我想和你谈谈你的发家途径。你是从做生意起家的吧？",[19,43,44],{},"施瓦辛格：是的。",[19,46,47],{},"马修斯：我只想问你一个最基本的问题。为什么自己当老板更好呢？",[19,49,50],{},"施瓦辛格：哦，首先，我只想说再次回到妇女大会现场让我感到非常高兴。我只想对我的太太玛莉亚说声\"谢谢你\"，她为让这次大会成为一次成功的大会、为让这么多女同胞出现在会场而忙活了整整一年，因此让我们为她所做的出色工作而热烈鼓掌。我还要感谢今天出席大会的14000 名妇女，感谢你们对大会的支持，我还要感谢来到这里的赞助商，感谢他们的资金支持。因此，非常感谢你们。",[19,52,53,54,57],{},"我一直乐衷于拥有自己的生意。我在10 岁的时候就开始创业了——沃伦和我在后台谈论了此事，因为沃伦说过，",[29,55,56],{},"要想成为一个成功的商人，最重要的事情是你早点动手，你就能早点获得成功，早日成为一名企业家","。我10岁的时候就开始卖冰淇淋，每到周末我都会在奥地利家乡的湖边跑来跑去兜售冰淇淋而挣上150 到180 个先令。",[19,59,60],{},"每年学校放假的时候我总是外出打工，努力经营自己的小生意。",[19,62,63],{},"所以做生意是我的本能。我不知道它来自哪里，因为我家族中没人做生意，没人拥有自己的生意，不过我一直乐衷于做生意。因此当我长大成人的时候，在慕尼黑拥有了一家健身房，那时我19 岁。当我来到美国的时候，我开始经营自己的邮购生意。所以我做每件事都离不开经营自己的生意。",[19,65,66],{},"同时我在想，如果你是一个敢于冒风险而不是躺在安全网里的人，那么你就得站出来承担风险，我来到美国是因为这里有巨大的机会，但机会后面不是一张安全网。假如你失败了，那就失败了。我喜欢这种生活，我喜欢冒险，因为风险越大，收益越大，当然同时摔得就越重，所以你必须意识到这一点。因此我总是喜欢冒险。",[19,68,69],{},"马修斯：你知道，\"社会主义者\"这个字眼在本次选举中一直被当作一个负面字眼使用，它是抛给民主党候选人的。你来自一个社会主义国家。你在那里卖冰淇淋，成了一个资本家，一个年轻的资本家，有点挑战社会制度的味道。你是怎么想的？",[19,71,72],{},"施瓦辛格：呵呵，我可以告诉你一件事情，就是我当时不交税。我那时才10 岁，没人找我上税。不过我告诉你一件事，就是我离开欧洲是因为那里的社会环境、他们管理国家的方式以及政府找你麻烦的方式都窒息了个人发展的机会，因此我来到了美国。",[19,74,75],{},"这就是为什么我一直参加我信任的政治领导人的竞选活动，因为我希望尽自己所能，确保美国不回到40 年前我离开欧洲时的老路上去，确保我们不会重新实行财富再分配的制度，而眼下有些人在谈论这种制度，财富根本不能重新分配。",[19,77,78],{},"马修斯：我喜欢这种对观众进行民意测验的方式。我们刚刚从共和党人这里听到了他们的声音。我明白。现在我们打算抛出我的杀手锏，这是我的本职工作，我打算问你一个和州长刚才讲的话并不冲突而是相互补充的问题。你高调反对人们在美国公司所挣的钱不成比例的现象，即高管比职员挣的钱多得越来越离谱。这多多少少和我们刚才听到的话唱反调，你是怎么想的？",[19,80,81],{},"巴菲特：噢，我认为很多CEO 得到了他们应该得到的回报，他们的回报很高，他们为这个国家贡献了很多。",[19,83,84],{},"因此我不和赚大钱的人争吵。我和那些赚大钱但很失败的人争吵。最近的情况是，他们赚得越多，他们摔得越轻，我不喜欢这种情况。",[19,86,87],{},"马修斯：你对这种自上而下式的社会制度有什么想法？在这种制度下，如果你是家大型金融公司，在美联储或财政部有人喜欢你，你得到了救助，而假如有人不喜欢你的话，比如说你是雷曼兄弟，你倒下了，你怎么想？你如何看待政府的形式以及经济社会的形式？",[19,89,90],{},"巴菲特：噢，这是一个艰难的抉择。我想，假如你是美联储主席或者是财政部部长的话，你很难判断一个知名机构的倒下是否会在经济体中引起一场\"海啸\"。我想，也许回头看发生在雷曼身上的事情是一个错误。但我能理解他们为什么做出那个决定。他们因为贝尔斯登事件而受到了很多批评。他们真的救不了那些公司，假如你看看贝尔斯登的股票最后值多少钱，或者你看看美国国际集团的股票最后值多少钱，或诸如此类的事情的话。",[19,92,93],{},"他们真正想做的就是，不让\"病毒\"在经济系统里扩散。我想就雷曼的情况而言，当他们没有那么做的时候，他们得到了一些意想不到的后果，这使得他们对于将来能够做什么变得非常小心谨慎。我们的经济体系确实纵横交错，假如你有数百万张衍生品票据没有偿还的话，正如在雷曼或贝尔斯登发生的那样，公司会破产，它会在很长一段时间里阻碍经济体系的发展。但是你不应该救助那些高层人士。因为这些人搞垮了一个机构，然后拿着数千万或几亿美元走人。",[19,95,96],{},"马修斯：可是你如何做到把婴儿从浴盆里倒出来，而洗澡水保留在里边？",[19,98,99],{},"巴菲特：哦，我想如果让你选择的话，你会选择救下婴儿的，这里的婴儿就是经济系统。",[19,101,102],{},"马修斯：你认为这种想法如何？当你在奥地利卖冰淇淋的时候，如果冬天来临，冰淇淋的销路不是很好，政府出面帮助你，你认为如何？",[19,104,105],{},"施瓦辛格：绝对不行。让我告诉你吧，那样做是最大的错误，因为那将让我懒于创新。这就是问题所在。",[19,107,108],{},"事情是这样的，当冬天来临的时候，我必须进行创新，在奥地利当人们玩冰上溜石游戏的时候，我必须去卖热狗。所以，我知道他们冻得要死，于是我必须去卖热茶，我必须去卖烈酒，我必须去卖香肠以及所有那些让他们感到开心的东西。",[19,110,111],{},"马修斯：烈酒。",[19,113,114],{},"施瓦辛格：你知道，你卖给他们的烈酒越多，他们给你的小费就越多，所以皆大欢喜。所以我喜欢这样。但你不需要一张安全网，你不想让政府插手。政府有自己的功能，我想重要事仍发生在欧洲说过的那样，40年前我们在欧洲也实行了社会主义制度，但它已经发生了变化。欧洲所有政府都学会了走相反的道路，他们提出了一个行之有效的混合模式，即政府固然重要，但它不能解决所有问题。建立公私合伙关系是理想之举。所以我认为重要的是美国不要回到40 年前的老路上去。",[19,116,117],{},"马修斯：资本集中制度是一个公平的制度吗？它能分辨优劣吗？如果你是个好生意人，你会成功吗？如果你是个坏生意人，你会失败吗？",[19,119,120],{},"巴菲特：它运转得非常良好。我们拥有一套很棒的制度。在20 世纪，美国普通人的实际生活水平提高了6倍，所以我们拥有一套很棒的制度。我常说，你要投资购买一个拥有生意好得不得了，即使傻瓜都能管理的公司的股票，因为早晚会有一个傻瓜管理它。我们的国家就像那样的好公司一样。",[19,122,123],{},"马修斯：你知道吗？我喜欢听你这么说。施瓦辛格州长来到这个国家，是因为他想来，而且他有抱负。我常常问人们这个问题：如果你们认为这个国家不那么优越的话，为什么每个族群的人来到美国后就变得更加优秀，而无论他们来自哪里？",[19,125,126],{},"巴菲特：当然。",[19,128,129],{},"马修斯：为什么呢？",[19,131,132],{},"巴菲特：我可以告诉你为什么。1790 年我们国家拥有400 万人口。那时中国的人口是2.9 亿，差不多就是我们今天的人口数量。那里的人们和我们这里的人们一样的聪明，他们的气候和我们类似，他们拥有的自然资源也和我们这里的类似。几百年后，我们拥有的GDP 占全世界的25%。现在的中国真的开始起飞了，因为他们已经注意到了我们。",[19,134,135],{},"我们是有缺点，但是我们拥有法治，我们拥有市场机制，而且我们还拥有一套英才管理制度。这些特征已经让我们的潜能释放了出来。以前中国的人力潜能也摆在了那里，以前欧洲的人力潜能就摆在了那里，但你没有像美国那样拥有一套释放人力潜能的制度。",[19,137,138],{},"我常常将其归功于3 个因素。我们拥有一套制度，这套制度让杰克·韦尔奇最终管理通用电气，而让迈克·泰森最终为赢得重量级拳击冠军而战，但不是让迈克·泰森负责管理通用电气或让杰克·韦尔奇为赢得重量级拳击冠军而战。我们培养人才，就像奥林匹克资格选拔赛一样，我们让合适的人得到合适的资源和合适的工作。然后我们通过法制来保护这一切。它运转得很好很好。",[19,140,141],{},"马修斯：我想韦尔奇现在可以挑战泰森了。只是猜测而已。",[19,143,144],{},"巴菲特：我来告诉你吧，靠那个我可赚不了几个钱。",[19,146,147],{},"马修斯：让我问问你在这些艰难日子里你是怎么过的，州长，因为作为最大州的州长，你面临的是最为严重的财政危机。我们如何才能摆脱这种危机？加州往何处去？我们是危机的受害者抑或我们是戴罪之人呢？",[19,149,150],{},"施瓦辛格：哦，首先，让我对沃伦刚才说的话加上一句，我认为我们国家是世界上最伟大的国家。我游遍了整个世界。认为这里的机会比任何其他国家的机会都大，大得让人吃惊。任何人都能够在这里取得成功，只要你有这个决心。一切的一切都在于决心，在于你身上有多少激情，在于你在多大程度上依赖于你自己，或者在于在多大程度上想出去得到施舍。因此成功与否真的要看你自己。",[19,152,153],{},"因此这个国家到目前为止是最棒的国家，尽管它有缺点，尽管我们有危机，尽管我们在金融上和经济上都处于衰退期，尽管我们有诸如此类的事情，尽管我们的股票市场有涨有跌。但是关于美国有一点我们确信不疑。它总是会东山再起，它总是会成为世界上最强大、最出色、最慷慨的国家。这就是我们确信不疑的一点。",[19,155,156],{},"就像所有其他州一样，加州由于目前在全国以及在世界发生的事情而陷入了财政危机。我想加州由于住房危机而遭受到了非常沉重的打击。但是我们非常幸运，尽管人们失去了住房、失去了工作，等等，处境很可怕。但与此同时，人们必须看到加州积极的一面，因为我们有如此多的不同产业支撑着加州的经济。因此，即使住房市场萎缩了下去，我们依然有高科技产业，我们依然有绿色技术产业、生物技术产业和纳米技术产业，我们在中央山谷拥有最难以置信的农业，等等。所有这些支撑起了加州、支撑起了娱乐业以及音乐产业等等。",[19,158,159],{},"我们拥有非常多样化的产业，我们加州拥有非常勤劳、非常聪明和富有创新精神的人民。我们拥有各种各样互不相同的产业，它们的表现很好，超过去年。比如，生物技术产业和高科技产业，它的表现都好于去年，还有绿色技术产业，尽管如我所说，我们的住房市场是萎缩的。",[19,161,162],{},"所以现在的关键问题是，如同沃伦说的那样，尽我们所能支持住房市场。这就是为什么我们敦促联邦政府行动起来支持住房市场并注资于住房市场。我认为第二轮经济刺激方案应该沿着这个方向走，朝着这个方向投入资金并参与进来，甚至收购一些贷款，不过利率要作调整，房产的价值要进行重估。尽管沃伦说过这么做非常困难，我完全同意他的说法，这些事情做起来非常困难，比如你从哪里下手等等。",[19,164,165],{},"但我认为关键是让人们继续住在自己的房子里而不要让他们失去自己的房子，因为金融市场不关心，贷款人不关心，甚至家人也不关心。没人对失去自己的住房感到关心，因为当银行拿走房子时——我们在加州看到了这样的情形，他们必须负责维修，他们现在必须再次出售那些房子，他们必须清洗游泳池以便蚊子不会在那里聚集、不会制造并传播疾病，如此等等。由于诸如此类的事情，他们不想接管住房。因此我想，如果政府出手帮助那些业主让他们继续待在自己房子里的话，每个人都会从中受益。",[19,167,168],{},"马修斯：沃伦，如果你向一个没有经过专业训练的人解释美国经济在2008 年发生了什么的话，你会如何解释？",[19,170,171],{},"巴菲特：噢，事情在两年前就发生了，那时几乎3 亿美国人一致相信所有房子都将年年升值。你深信不疑，我深信不疑，我们的朋友深信不疑，媒体深信不疑，国会深信不疑，贷款人深信不疑，华尔街深信不疑。所以你有这样一种感觉，当然了，每人都期盼拥有一套房子。假如明年你要花更多的钱买房子的话，你还是今年就买的好。贷款人不担心你的收入是否能够满足分期付款条件，因为他们认为房子转过年来会升值，假如你不能还房贷的话，他们会卖掉房子并从中获利。",[19,173,174],{},"所以，人们达成了共识，也就成了一个住房市场的泡沫，我们有了一个庞大的资产类别，顶峰时它的市值约为22 万亿美元。它涉及几乎68%的美国家庭，涉及所有的贷款人以及其他一切领域。基于这种情况，全世界的借债率上升。人们愿意把钱借给想买任何房子的任何人。人们忘记了首期付款。",[19,176,177],{},"几年前显然存在着一种谬论。如果全国范围内房价下降20%左右的话，那么损失就介于4-5 万亿美元之间。",[19,179,180],{},"如果一项被大量人群持有的资产类别的损失达到4.5 万亿美元，而世界各地的人们已经购买了其债券的话，人们的态度就会突然之间发生改变，他们开始对任何人都不信任了。于是他们想要减持债务。",[19,182,183],{},"那些举债的人想要减持债务——无论他们是个人还是机构。每个人都想在资产负债表的资产一栏里拿走项目。当全世界的人都开始减持债务的话，增持债务的队伍就空荡荡了，金融系统就此冻结。这就是我们需要联邦政府的原因。在这样的时期，联邦政府是唯一能够举债的一方。我不可以举债，加州政府不可以举债。",[19,185,186],{},"马修斯：\"举债\"是什么意思？",[19,188,189],{},"巴菲特：它的意思是借更多的钱，在某种意义上就意味着用借来的钱购买资产。几年前整个世界都借钱购买资产。现在呢？那些人正试图减少贷款。你需要另外某个人增加债务，而这个人必须是联邦政府。",[19,191,192],{},"马修斯：所以当州长说\"刺激方案\"时，他的意思是我们超越几周前他们所采取的行动，我们继续超越他们，继续采取措施去刺激。",[19,194,195],{},"巴菲特：无论如何你要让系统里的其他人将债务减持到一定程度，因为他们需要那么做。业主需要减持债务。他们借钱太多。刺激方案是其中的一部分，但实际上以某种形式或者购买资产，或者向购买资产的经济系统注入资金是绝对有必要的，这就是我们这么做的原因所在。",[19,197,198],{},"施瓦辛格：沃伦，我认为这将很重要，因为我们总是谈论在这种局面下政府应该如何插手进来并施以援助，我认为这么做是对的，但我也认为如果你首先阐述一下政府为了让我们摆脱这种局面，而在第一时间介入多深会更好一点，因为我认为政府有时候会制造混乱。但是突然之间你想甩手不干了，于是问题是，正如尼采说的那样，具有同样想法的人制造了麻烦，却不能真正地解决麻烦。这次的情况也是这样子的吗？我们如何摆脱这种局面而迈步前行？",[19,200,201],{},"巴菲特：嗯，他们不会圆满地解决这个问题，不过没人会圆满地解决这个问题。你知道吗？你可以让亚历山大·汉密尔顿或者别的什么人来当财政部长，无论是谁。这是个很大很大的问题，它自然将会变得非常棘手。美国有5500 万宗房屋抵押贷款。目前陷入困境的只有400 万宗。美国有2000 万套房屋是不存在任何抵押贷款的，其产权是清晰的。但假如你试图通过官僚机构在全国范围内执行某项政策的话，这将导致混乱。但它是我们必须以这种规模做事的唯一真实的工具。随着各个银行都在减持债务，投资家光靠他们自己是不能制止资产抛售给他们的那股浪潮的。",[19,203,204],{},"马修斯：让我们谈谈政府政策吧。州长，你说过5 年前你在就职的时候曾大声承诺要支持诸如\"放学后\"等教育项目的倡议；为此我多次采访过你。你一直大力推进加州教育的优先权。就让我们谈谈在座的这些人吧，这里有14000 人，如果你对成为一名企业家感兴趣，或者他们已经是企业家了，或者他们仅仅想成为一名成功的消费者、职员，也许还想成为一名成功的公司主管。政府能够积极地做些什么事情？政府扮演一个什么样的角色，一个什么样的正面角色？",[19,206,207],{},"施瓦辛格：哦，我认为非常重要的一点是政府要非常迅速地对外面的变化做出反应。我想我们已经看到联邦政府做出了反应，因为他们对第一轮经济刺激方案进行了投票。但因为方案未获得通过，他们等了一周，这就给市场带来了可怕的冲击，人们对政府失去了信心，因此后来它对市场根本就产生不了任何影响。事实上，当他们最终通过了7000 亿美元的刺激方案时，股票市场反而下跌了。",[19,209,210],{},"但在加州，我们做了一些了不起的事情。我们感到非常幸运的是加州人民已经批准政府发行420 亿美元外加 80 亿美元的基本建设债券。所以我们有了这笔钱。其中一部分钱已经拨付，另外的一部分还没有。我们尽快地投入数十亿美元去建学校、翻修教室、建高速公路以及驶入和驶出弯道、去创造工作岗位，因为我们必须创造工作岗位。这是最重要的一件事。",[19,212,213],{},"因为这是妇女大会嘛，当谈到妇女的时候，我认为妇女在家里的经济地位非常高。这很棒，大多数妇女掌握着家里的财政大权。我想她们面临着挑战，妇女面临着额外的挑战，就是必须照顾老人——超过70%的妇女必须照顾家里的老人。",[19,215,216],{},"但与此同时，你知道吗？当你看到妇女拥有这么多生意的时候，你觉得这是多么了不起的件事。像在加州，几乎有100 万妇女拥有自己的生意——小生意、中等生意、大生意等等，所以，我想这是非常鼓舞人心的一件事。我认为对妇女来说现在关键的问题是我们一起尽最大努力去培养更多的商业主管、更多的企业领导者，因为只有10%多一点的妇女在领导着企业，在领导着美国最大型的企业。",[19,218,219],{},"另外，我的目标就是尽一切可能培养更多的妇女在立法机构里工作，因为我们加州的女性立法者也许只占25%或者24%。我认为如果把这个比例提升到50%的话，你们就会看到有不同的决策出台，因为妇女有着不同的优先考虑的问题，另外我认为，为了做出好的决策，我们需要在萨克拉门托和华盛顿的立法机构里设置男女混合比例为1:1。",[19,221,222],{},"马修斯：你知道，这里女人的数目超过了我们男人，男人只有3 名，对吧？",[19,224,225],{},"巴菲特：我喜欢。对于一个在高中没能和女生约会的男人来说，我喜欢这样的环境。",[19,227,228],{},"马修斯：你知道，如果你看看法律都做了些什么——这里是一个非常自由、非常自立的企业家群体，看起来是这样，如果你看看这些年政府做的一些好事——我做一分钟的自由主义者——我就把目光投向教育修正案第9款。我喜欢第9 款。因为我太太当初在斯坦福大学读书的时候，她的网球队获得了全国冠军，但作为网球队的一名队员，她必须支付外出比赛的旅行费用。那对女性运动员来说很不公平。然后我观看比赛，原因显而易见——哦，男女都观看比赛。今年的奥林匹克女子排球队也许是这两周来全国的最爱。显然如果没有加州、加州的沙滩以及加州的生活方式，所有这些都不会发生。但事实上妇女在体育方面一直存在着机会——我想拿一些你们做的事情来说，因为你们很多人来自体育界，我是说你们是体育界的代表——我真的相信，妇女在体育界担当的领导者角色引导她们在商界也担当了领导者的角色，就像很多男人所做的那样。今天的女运动员要成为明天的领导者，面临的是指挥权、领导权以及个人身体上面的挑战。这是我的预感。你们意下如何？",[19,230,231],{},"施瓦辛格：噢，我想我已经多次指出，我在体育运动中学到了经验教训，非常重要的经验教训。在队友之情方面、与别人一起工作方面作为一名队员你可以学到很多了不起的东西。你必须分析自己的表现，意识到自己的缺点，每个人的表现都有不足之处。我需要钻研什么？我怎么克服那些缺点？我如何聆听别人的建议以便使自己的表现得以提高？问问自己诸如此类的事情，然后坚持到底。你在体育方面学到的最重要的经验教训之一是坚持到底。如果你打网球，他们告诉你要拿着球拍坚持到底。如果你打高尔夫，他们告诉你要拿着球杆坚持到底。当你滑雪的时候，他们告诉你要完成你自己的拐弯，如此等等。生活也是如此，正如我常常说的那样。",[19,233,234],{},"比如在生活中，当你提到绿色能源技术以及对抗全球变暖时，有很多人为了对抗全球变暖而制定了法律。但实际去执行这些法律并坚持到底地实施这些法律则完全是另外一回事。那才是困难的部分，那就是为什么我们加州如此成功的原因是我们制定了法律，然后我们贯彻执行坚持到底，我们实际上减少碳排放以对抗全球变暖，减少了温室气体的排放，如此等等。",[19,236,237],{},"因此我想这些都是你从体育运动中学到的经验教训，而你可以把这些经验教训运用到企业管理之中，或当你是一位州长的时候，你就可以运用这些经验教训来展示你的领导力，或者如果你是一名参议员或如果你竞选某个公职或管理一个企业，总之不管你干什么，你都可以运用你的这些经验教训。我认为所有的事情都是一笔不错的资产，我认为知识和经验会伴随你一生。",[19,239,240],{},"巴菲特：我谈到过我们的制度如何释放人力潜能，但是我们国家在200 年的时间里真的忽视了一半的人力潜能。如果你回头看看1776 年，托马斯·杰斐逊在著名的《独立宣言》的第二段写下了这样鼓舞全国人民的话，他说：\"我们认为这些真理不言自明：人人生而平等。\"当他们聚集在一起起草《宪法》的时候，这些话完全成了空话。黑人只相当于五分之三个白人。\"人人生而平等\"——五分之三个人怎么说？妇女到了1920 年《宪法》经过第 19 次修正之后才有了投票权。除此之外，此后桑德拉·戴·奥康纳在最高法院任职也是在1981 年之后的事了。《独立宣言》发表之后我们又艰难行走了200 年。",[19,242,243],{},"所以我们实际上忽视了这个国家一半人的才能。正是这一点让我对这个国家的未来充满希望，因为它会释放更多的人力潜能。假如你读过《美国宪法》第2 条款第1 小节关于美国总统任职资格的话，你会同意我这种说法的。我猜想阿诺德已经读过了那一节的内容。",[19,245,246],{},"其中的第二句话是这样说的：\"他的服务期限应该是一届4 年。\"我想这是《宪法》里唯一的一个人称代词。\"他应该…\"我是说，想想看吧，无论是字面上的意思还是在人们的潜意识里，这句话无论如何都是对一半人说的。",[19,248,249],{},"正如我说过的那样，我们甚至花去了131 年的时间才说她们能够投票或能够成为陪审团中的一员。我们浪费了人类的潜能，我们难以置信美国会发生这种事，不过现在我们打算开始释放这种潜能了。",[19,251,252],{},"马修斯：我身上邪恶的一面正在引导我朝这个方向前进。准备好了吗？",[19,254,255],{},"巴菲特：好了，我们被警告过。",[19,257,258],{},"马修斯：我们这里有两个男人。有没有可能妇女成为他们超强能力的受害者？我提醒一下。我生长在一个传统家庭里。我父亲是家里的老大，但实际上他不是——说来话长，可他自认为是老大。他认为自己是老大。你们知道吗？我母亲是个天才，我们之所以读了个好大学、矫正了牙齿、上了钢琴课、在海边拥有一套住房、比中产阶级稍微好一点点，都是因为我母亲有远见。她操纵我的父亲让这一切成为了现实，然后她又非常努力地工作让这一切成为了现实。但她是我们家的大脑。如果不是她的话，我们家的支票簿永远不会有人看一眼的。她一清二楚。今天的情况也是一样，我在想妇女这么拼命地工作是不是导致了她们正在失去影响力，因为她们承担了所有的脑力劳动。她们知道孩子们得了多少分。假如你问一个男人他的孩子得了多少分的话，他会一脸茫然地看着你，仿佛你是来自冥王星。他似乎在说：我为什么要知道这些，你知道吗？他们不知道老师的名字，不知道孩子的同学的名字。他们的妻子，孩子的母亲，对这些则了如指掌，否则她们就有负罪感，她们知道分数，了解孩子的同学，知道孩子的一切事情。为了丰富孩子们的视野，她们去博物馆，她们去上钢琴课。丈夫则在想\"我必须离开这里\"诸如此类的事情。但精神上他依然是一家之长。",[19,260,261],{},"所以我的问题是，妇女是家庭里的秘密CEO 吗，是家里的秘密CFO 吗，是家里的秘密老大吗？她们为什么不正大光明地管理这个地方呢？这就是我的问题。这个问题困扰着我。",[19,263,264],{},"巴菲特：好吧。让我也变得邪恶点吧。回到你的青年时代，如果你能做出改变的话，你会为了在未来充分挖掘自己的才能或别的什么而改变你自己吗？你会改变自己的性别成为女人吗？假如你做出了这样的选择，你会说围墙的另外一边风景更好吗？",[19,266,267],{},"马修斯：那时候——你在讨好观众。我会这么想——成为我的女儿真不错，我将这样叙述，可以吗？今天在 21 世纪作为一名和大学生年龄相仿的年轻女性，她有野心——比如她前几天拿到了律师证，吓了我一跳，也吓了她妈妈一跳，她非常自然非常自信地认为自己无所不能。正如我说过的一样，她在研究今后20 年或30 年大政府的债务成本问题。我认为她眼中没有任何障碍。",[19,269,270],{},"巴菲特：我举双手赞成。沧海桑田，世道发生了巨变，而我出生于1930 年，有一个姐姐和一个妹妹，她们绝对和我一样聪明。潜意识里她们在学校、在家里、在教堂接受这样的一个信息——她们看到男人统治教堂，男人统治一切。她们接受这样的信息，即她们的命运和我的不同，而这是个可怕的信息。",[19,272,273],{},"我认为时代变得比原来好多了。但你对任何事情充满雄心的想法则不然。有一次我曾和毕业于康奈尔医学院的第一位女博士交谈。在解剖课上，他们让她站在屏风后面。50 年前作为一名妇女，你得到的信息就是你的位置就在那里。也许你比你丈夫在各个方面都聪明，但是我认识的男性中很少有人说：\"咦，我希望生下来是个女人，这样我就能够完全发挥我的才能了，无论是在哪个领域。\"",[19,275,276],{},"马修斯：那么哪方面发生了变化？催化剂又是什么呢？",[19,278,279],{},"巴菲特：哦，我认为变化实际上是在1920 年随着《第19 次修正案》的出台而开始出现的。我记得当是变化缓慢。我认为那个时候妇女有了不同的榜样。我想桑德拉·戴·奥康纳的出现是个转机，无论如何你必须眼见为实。",[19,281,282],{},"她们在50 年前或70 年前没有见到。现在她们看到妇女在打理生意，她们看到妇女在做事，今年有名女性在非常严肃认真地竞选总统。因此世道发生了变化。希拉里·克林顿为妇女做了很多事。",[19,284,285],{},"马修斯：你意下如何，州长？在加州这里——让我们谈一会政治吧，因为时机成熟了。希拉里·克林顿在竞选总统的时候赢得了民主党的过半选票，离尘埃落定非常近了。在共和党那边，我们有一位女性副总统候选人，她享受相当不错的着装补贴。看到了吗？听听这里的掌声吧。",[19,287,288],{},"巴菲特：别忘了你母亲，克里斯。",[19,290,291],{},"马修斯：变化已经开始了，已经开始了，州长，你如何看待眼下政治和女性的话题？加州有两名女性参议",[19,293,294],{},"员，非常杰出。我们在政治上达到或者接近男女平等的境界了吗？抑或没有达到呢？我们距离在诸如政治等问题上男女平等依然还有20 年之远吗？",[19,296,297],{},"施瓦辛格：首先，我只想说有意思的是他没有回答你当初提的问题，即你是否愿意成为一个女人。这才是你的问题，但不管怎么说，他没有回答这个问题。很好。但不管怎么说，底线是一沃伦，你给了他压力，我告诉你吧。你必须化解压力，沃伦。你必须化解它。但不管怎么说，我只是—— 马修斯：哦，实际上我有4 个兄弟，没有姐妹，所以我不知道。不过我同意你的观点。",[19,299,300],{},"施瓦辛格：你不必解释，因为在加州有些男人想变成女人。但你不用担心，你不必做出那样的承诺。",[19,302,303],{},"但不管怎么说，我想我提到了—— 马修斯：我们将要再次变回姑娘一样的男孩子吗？",[19,305,306],{},"施瓦辛格：我可没那么说。",[19,308,309],{},"巴菲特：我们没说税收问题，他也没说娘娘腔的男人。",[19,311,312],{},"马修斯：我明白了。",[19,314,315],{},"施瓦辛格：我想我先前提到过，我认为妇女取得了巨大的进步。显然作为一名女性，你要面临非常非常严峻的挑战，因为你来自传统社会，你要打破\"玻璃天花板\"，你要迈步向前取得这些实实在在的进步。我认为今年的确是不平凡的一年，尽管你看到吵吵闲闹，两党之间相互攻击，相互指责，但事实是女性确实取得了重大进步。正如你说的，希拉里·克林顿——我是说，这真了不起。在民主党这边，当然我认为有两项突破。谁最后被选出做民主党总统候选人并不要紧，因为这既是非裔美国人方面的重大突破，也是女性方面的重大突破。因此，我认为非常妙的是我们看到了这些突破。",[19,317,318],{},"我也认为共和党那边麦凯恩选佩琳州长作为搭档是相当好的一件事，因为这再次——你知道我现在不是谈论彼此间的争论、经验不足以及衣服花费是15 万美元还是2 万美元等等这类问题。这些和今天的讨论没关系。重要的是恰好妇女处在了那个位置。我认为这是了不起的一件事。我因此为共和党感到骄傲，因为我觉得他们永远不会走到那一步的，永远不会真正走进那块禁地的，但他们做到了，因此他们真了不起。",[19,320,321],{},"我想我们现在必须继续前进。我认为美国已经作好了选举一位女性做总统的准备，美国已经作好了选举一位非裔美国人做总统的准备。我认为美国人已经作好了变革的准备。",[19,323,324],{},"马修斯：嗯，我想我们三个男人坐在这里，我想说点为自己辩护的话，以免人们认为我这里似乎是\"人来疯\"的王国。我对和我一起生活的那个人以及她处理多项工作的能力感到吃惊——这么说并不能解释她的全部——她具备通盘考虑问题的能力。她把问题装在脑子里，她处理这些事情，而我把它们放在一边。她和官僚打交道，而我讨厌和他们打交道。我讨厌和维修公司打交道。她则非常老练地给官僚打电话，给代理商打电话，修理东西——当我回到家和她起吃晚饭，她会说：\"今天我修理好了那件让我们烦心的东西。\"她做好晚饭，而且每天都要处理我生活中出现的最复杂的事情。和孩子们在一起，她知道家里的所有事情。她简直就像一台巨型计算机，对家里的事情无所不知，而我则像一只虫子爬进来，除了知道食物在哪里之外一无所知，我还会冲咖啡。我很自豪。",[19,326,327],{},"我想我们在这里谈论的是滞后性。男人已经懂得了欣赏，这里的三个男人和整个社会欣赏几百年来这个国家里的妇女无论是在智力方面，还是在社会责任方面所扮演的重要角色。她们的能力并不新奇。新奇的是人们对她们能力的认识，我认为这就是现实。",[19,329,330],{},"我向玛莉亚致敬——我没机会谈论你们施瓦辛格家庭是如何划分责任和权利的。你想要延长节目时间谈论谈论吗？",[19,332,333],{},"施瓦辛格：我可以告诉你，在我们家里这件事很简单。我只需对玛莉亚要求的每件事点头称是即可。为了维护家庭和睦。",[19,335,336],{},"马修斯：我并不认为是这样。我认为情况要复杂得多。",[19,338,339],{},"施瓦辛格：不过，我告诉你吧，你的观点真的很好，因为如果你确确实实细心观察妇女的话，观察她们在家里如何做事以及她们承担的多项工作的话——比如我绝对会对玛莉亚佩服得五体投地。我是说，她一直是多面手，不论当孩子们成长的时候，还是当他们还是婴儿的时候，他们在家里的桌子底下爬来爬去，而她则利用电脑进行工作，她会一边打电话一边做笔记，我进门问她一个问题后，她会继续做这些事情。当我仅仅阅读一个文件的时候，我都不能让一个孩子留在房间里。她能同时处理多种工作的能力简直不可思议。我认为妇女比男人拥有更强的处理多种问题的能力。所以她们也许比我们更胜一筹，谁知道呢？",[19,341,342],{},"马修斯：她们也许比我们更胜一筹，谁知道呢？但毫无疑问，政治和社会最终将与现实接轨。谢谢诸位。谢谢你，沃伦·巴菲特先生。",[19,344,345],{},"沃伦·巴菲特：谢谢你。",[19,347,348],{},"马修斯：谢谢你，州长。",[350,351],"hr",{},{"title":353,"searchDepth":354,"depth":354,"links":355},"",2,[356],{"id":16,"depth":354,"text":17},"访谈与文章",null,"巴菲特与加州州长施瓦辛格共同出席妇女大会，探讨21世纪经济领导力，强调创新、教育与长期竞争力的培养。","md",{},true,72,"\u002Fbuffett\u002Finterview\u002Fba-fei-te-2008nian-21-shi-ji-jing-ji-ling-dao-zhe-cai-fang",{"title":5,"description":359},"巴菲特：2008年21 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有限合伙协议","1956-you-xian-he-huo-xie-yi","致股东信",1,{"title":378,"slug":379,"category":357,"order":376},"巴菲特：1951年最看好的股票：GEICO 保险","ba-fei-te-1951nian-zui-kan-hao-de-gu-piao-geico-bao-xian",{"title":381,"slug":382,"category":383,"order":376},"1994年伯克希尔股东大会","1994nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui","股东大会",{"title":385,"slug":386,"category":375,"order":354},"1957 巴菲特致合伙人信","1957-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",{"title":388,"slug":389,"category":357,"order":354},"巴菲特：1953年我最看好的股票：西部保险","ba-fei-te-1953nian-wo-zui-kan-hao-de-gu-piao-xi-bu-bao-xian",{"title":391,"slug":392,"category":383,"order":354},"1995年伯克希尔股东大会","1995nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":394,"slug":395,"category":375,"order":396},"1958 巴菲特致合伙人信","1958-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",3,{"title":398,"slug":399,"category":357,"order":396},"巴菲特：1957年我最看好的股票：人寿保险","ba-fei-te-1957nian-wo-zui-kan-hao-de-gu-piao-ren-shou-bao-xian",{"title":401,"slug":402,"category":383,"order":396},"1996年伯克希尔股东大会","1996nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":404,"slug":405,"category":375,"order":406},"1959 巴菲特致合伙人信","1959-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",4,{"title":408,"slug":409,"category":357,"order":406},"巴菲特：1957年最看好的股票：油气资产管理公司","ba-fei-te-1957nian-zui-kan-hao-de-gu-piao-you-qi-zi-chan-guan-li-gong-si",{"title":411,"slug":412,"category":383,"order":406},"1997年伯克希尔股东大会","1997nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":414,"slug":415,"category":375,"order":416},"1960 巴菲特致合伙人信","1960-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",5,{"title":418,"slug":419,"category":357,"order":416},"巴菲特：1972年巴菲特谈喜诗糖果","ba-fei-te-1972nian-ba-fei-te-tan-xi-shi-tang-guo",{"title":421,"slug":422,"category":383,"order":416},"1998年伯克希尔股东大会","1998nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":424,"slug":425,"category":375,"order":426},"1961 巴菲特致合伙人信","1961-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",6,{"title":428,"slug":429,"category":357,"order":426},"巴菲特：1974年击球啊,你这个笨蛋","ba-fei-te-1974nian-ji-qiu-a-ni-zhe-ge-ben-dan",{"title":431,"slug":432,"category":383,"order":426},"1999年伯克希尔股东大会","1999nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":434,"slug":435,"category":375,"order":436},"1961年中 巴菲特致合伙人信","1961nian-zhong-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",7,{"title":438,"slug":439,"category":357,"order":436},"巴菲特：1976年巴菲特谈GEICO","ba-fei-te-1976nian-ba-fei-te-tan-geico",{"title":441,"slug":442,"category":383,"order":436},"2000年伯克希尔股东大会","2000nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":444,"slug":445,"category":375,"order":446},"1962 巴菲特致合伙人信","1962-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",8,{"title":448,"slug":449,"category":357,"order":446},"巴菲特：1976年怀念恩师格雷厄姆","ba-fei-te-1976nian-huai-nian-en-shi-ge-lei-e-mu",{"title":451,"slug":452,"category":383,"order":446},"2001年伯克希尔股东大会","2001nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":454,"slug":455,"category":375,"order":456},"1962年11月 巴菲特致合伙人信","1962nian-11yue-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",9,{"title":458,"slug":459,"category":357,"order":456},"巴菲特：1977年谈通货膨胀","ba-fei-te-1977nian-tan-tong-huo-peng-zhang",{"title":461,"slug":462,"category":383,"order":456},"2002年伯克希尔股东大会","2002nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":464,"slug":465,"category":375,"order":466},"1962年12月 巴菲特致合伙人信","1962nian-12yue-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",10,{"title":468,"slug":469,"category":357,"order":466},"巴菲特：1979年谈股市","ba-fei-te-1979nian-tan-gu-shi",{"title":471,"slug":472,"category":383,"order":466},"2003年伯克希尔股东大会","2003nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":474,"slug":475,"category":375,"order":476},"1962年中 巴菲特致合伙人信","1962nian-zhong-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",11,{"title":478,"slug":479,"category":357,"order":476},"巴菲特：1982年谈指数期货","ba-fei-te-1982nian-tan-zhi-shu-qi-huo",{"title":481,"slug":482,"category":383,"order":476},"2004年伯克希尔股东大会","2004nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":484,"slug":485,"category":375,"order":486},"1963 巴菲特致合伙人信","1963-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",12,{"title":488,"slug":489,"category":357,"order":486},"巴菲特：1983年写给Louie Blumkin的信（内布拉斯加州家具百货","ba-fei-te-1983nian-xie-gei-louie-blumkinde-xin-nei-bu-la-si-jia-zhou-jia-ju-bai-huo",{"title":491,"slug":492,"category":383,"order":486},"2005年伯克希尔股东大会","2005nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":494,"slug":495,"category":375,"order":496},"1963年11月 巴菲特致合伙人信","1963nian-11yue-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",13,{"title":498,"slug":499,"category":357,"order":496},"巴菲特：1983年向Rose Blumkin 发出的正式意向收购书","ba-fei-te-1983nian-xiang-rose-blumkin-fa-chu-de-zheng-shi-yi-xiang-shou-gou-shu",{"title":501,"slug":502,"category":383,"order":496},"2006年伯克希尔股东大会","2006nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":504,"slug":505,"category":375,"order":506},"1963年12月 巴菲特致合伙人信","1963nian-12yue-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",14,{"title":508,"slug":509,"category":357,"order":506},"巴菲特：1984年哥大商学院演讲","ba-fei-te-1984nian-ge-da-shang-xue-yuan-yan-jiang",{"title":511,"slug":512,"category":383,"order":506},"2007年伯克希尔股东大会","2007nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":514,"slug":515,"category":375,"order":516},"1963年中 巴菲特致合伙人信","1963nian-zhong-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",15,{"title":518,"slug":519,"category":357,"order":516},"巴菲特：1985年谈投资","ba-fei-te-1985nian-tan-tou-zi",{"title":521,"slug":522,"category":383,"order":516},"2008年伯克希尔股东大会","2008nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":524,"slug":525,"category":375,"order":526},"1964 巴菲特致合伙人信","1964-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",16,{"title":528,"slug":529,"category":357,"order":526},"巴菲特：1986年《如何驯服“赌场社会”》","ba-fei-te-1986nian-ru-he-xun-fu-du-chang-she-hui",{"title":531,"slug":532,"category":383,"order":526},"2009年伯克希尔股东大会","2009nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":534,"slug":535,"category":375,"order":536},"1964年中 巴菲特致合伙人信","1964nian-zhong-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",17,{"title":538,"slug":539,"category":357,"order":536},"巴菲特：1986年在《华尔街日报》刊登的收购广告","ba-fei-te-1986nian-zai-hua-er-jie-ri-bao-kan-deng-de-shou-gou-guang-gao",{"title":541,"slug":542,"category":383,"order":536},"2010年伯克希尔股东大会","2010nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":544,"slug":545,"category":375,"order":546},"1965 巴菲特致合伙人信","1965-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",18,{"title":548,"slug":549,"category":357,"order":546},"巴菲特：1987年-关于股票指数期货的早期担忧","ba-fei-te-1987nian-guan-yu-gu-piao-zhi-shu-qi-huo-de-zao-qi-dan-you",{"title":551,"slug":552,"category":383,"order":546},"2011年伯克希尔股东大会","2011nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":554,"slug":555,"category":375,"order":556},"1965 巴菲特致股东信","1965-ba-fei-te-zhi-gu-dong-xin",19,{"title":558,"slug":559,"category":357,"order":556},"巴菲特：1987年-我们可以从费雪（Phil Fisher）身上学到什么","ba-fei-te-1987nian-wo-men-ke-yi-cong-fei-xue-phil-fisher-shen-shang-xue-dao-shi-me",{"title":561,"slug":562,"category":383,"order":556},"2012年伯克希尔股东大会","2012nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":564,"slug":565,"category":375,"order":566},"1965年11月 巴菲特致合伙人信","1965nian-11yue-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",20,{"title":568,"slug":569,"category":357,"order":566},"巴菲特：1988年谈投资","ba-fei-te-1988nian-tan-tou-zi",{"title":571,"slug":572,"category":383,"order":566},"2013年伯克希尔股东大会","2013nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":574,"slug":575,"category":375,"order":576},"1965年中 巴菲特致合伙人信","1965nian-zhong-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",21,{"title":578,"slug":579,"category":357,"order":576},"巴菲特：1990年斯坦福法学院演讲","ba-fei-te-1990nian-si-tan-fu-fa-xue-yuan-yan-jiang",{"title":581,"slug":582,"category":383,"order":576},"2014年伯克希尔股东大会","2014nian-bo-ke-xi-er-gu-dong-da-hui",{"title":584,"slug":585,"category":375,"order":586},"1966 巴菲特致合伙人信","1966-ba-fei-te-zhi-he-huo-ren-xin",22,{"title":588,"slug":589,"category":357,"order":586},"巴菲特：1991年 年喜诗糖果70 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